Experimental Theology

The children can learn a great deal from Santa - s...

2009-12-25T14:44:08.887-06:00

The children can learn a great deal from Santa - see eg this link http://www.noradsanta.org/en/index.html

Oh I forgot to mention - you do have to follow the...

2009-12-25T14:15:27.476-06:00

Oh I forgot to mention - you do have to follow the lifeguard's instructions

Re the everlasting fire - it is a fire of love and...

2009-12-25T14:14:32.506-06:00

Re the everlasting fire - it is a fire of love and at the lake of fire I met the cool lifeguard. No problems.

It occurred to me at our midnight Mass last night ...

2009-12-25T14:09:12.854-06:00

It occurred to me at our midnight Mass last night that the story is too bold to have been invented. It certainly could not have been invented by any populist atheist of today from Russell to Hitchens. They would not have or have had the gall to make any such assumption about the unassuming God who assumes our humanity. Even the gnostics according to Deconnick's article in BAR, realized that a God who stoops to create - even once, let alone twice to create and redeem - is a god that is lesser than the Ultimate Abstraction - who is so far beyond as to be unimaginable by us. So Incarnation is too bold for modern atheists and too small for gnostics. What sort of person would dare not one but dozens of different portraits of something this good!

JTB, My reading in this area is pretty sketchy. Th...

2009-12-25T10:16:08.231-06:00

JTB,
My reading in this area is pretty sketchy. This post and a recent post of mine about the uncanny valley represents what I know on the topic.

I'd love to read your disseration on this subject. I've known you were writing about cyborgs but I don't know what that is all about and I'm very curious about your work.

Deb, That is very nice to ask about. Our church do...

2009-12-25T09:54:27.144-06:00

Deb,
That is very nice to ask about. Our church does put podcasts of the sermons online. When my sermon is up I'll put up a post linking to it.

All of the propositions are very logical but based...

2009-12-24T10:55:25.421-06:00

All of the propositions are very logical but based upon the assumption that "man cannot thwart the desires of God."

Even when God permits it?

I have no quarrel with Peter's observation that "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." But I find "repentance" to be oppositional to "perish."

I also have no quarrel with John's revelation that "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." I don't understand how names could be written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, but I don't have to understand in order to believe it.

And I think that's where a whole bunch of us believers have gotten off track ... believing that we have to understand everything about God in order to believe in Him.

Not possible.

Merry Christmas, bro, and thanks as always for making quite a few of my neurons fire!

i saw U2 in Norman, OK. That was the absolute bes...

2009-12-24T00:56:57.202-06:00

i saw U2 in Norman, OK. That was the absolute best concert i've ever been to. And that despite the fact that the played very little old stuff.

i think the earlier U2 is really the brilliant stuff. Just about every early album sounds so inspired--so, "hey, i don't care if i'm one person, i'll change the world if it kills me." i like listening to U2 because it makes you feel like you're a part of something bigger than your little circle of life. Some of their music has stirred me even more than some hymns i sing on Sunday morning. HOWEVER, i'd say after Joshua Tree, they really lost their inspirational edge in my view. Their music really sounds so much more image-conscious and "trendy" than pre-Joshua Tree. Track-for-track, War is still my favorite album. But all the early ones are good.

What did you think of the show in Dallas?

It is interesting in Buddhism (since this is obvio...

2009-12-23T15:46:37.179-06:00

It is interesting in Buddhism (since this is obviously a poke at Buddhism) there are mechanisms for "Grace", just as in Christianity there are mechanism for effort ("works"). Indeed, forgiveness and free gifts must enter the picture of any culture of the mind.

Dr. Beck, I wish I could attend the service in whi...

2009-12-23T12:21:56.435-06:00

Dr. Beck,
I wish I could attend the service in which you are preaching. I am neither a Texan nor anywhere close to Texas. Any chance you would post the sermon you delivered here?

Thanks much for your consideration -
Deb

I like Wink and Yoder and Hauerwas (Woderwas) on t...

2009-12-23T11:05:32.291-06:00

I like Wink and Yoder and Hauerwas (Woderwas) on these issues, but to a degree. Cavenaugh, on the other hand seems to espouse all of the elements these fellows get wrong. I have not read Stringfellow, but in response to what you have shared:
We need to discern among institutions which emerge spontaneously and those which exercise power-over mechanisms. In particular Woderwas identifies Capitalism as a demonic institution which I see as a voluntarist institution which does not serve the angel of death. Manifestations of Capitalism as it has been enslaved by various states do demonstrate the demonic, but the market itself does not bring death. Rather, it transforms self-interest into life for all those involved. It is the pinnacle of common grace.
The profit motive is identified as evil, but this only works in a zero-sum game. Is increase in productivity within self-sustaining communities evil? Is it not God who brings the increase? Profit is evil when it is achieved by fraud or theft, but whatever is of the market does not practice fraud or theft, rather it provides the work-arounds despite the presence of privileged interests.
There is a legitimate theory behind the existence of the firm, one which is voluntarist and does not require power-over mechanisms (see Alchian and Demsetz from UCLA Econ.)
Corporations and nations die, but in regards to corporations this is part of creative destruction (see Schumpeter).
The market is not an institution with a life such that it can die. The state and the corporation and even denominations are. The desire for and advantages of mutual gains through exchange is ubiquitous. The only thing which halts it is violence.
Sometimes I think Woderwas means Oligopolistic Capitalism when they say Capitalism. That is, privileged interests within the market exercise power. This is true. The solution is not to subvert the corporations, which, if privileged, are mere symptoms, but rather to act subversively towards the power which grants the privilege, the state.
Nathanael Snow
Graduate student, economics
george Mason University
ndsnow@gmail.com

Richard, A very helpful summary-thank you. As othe...

2009-12-23T09:20:49.608-06:00

Richard,
A very helpful summary-thank you. As others have posted, I'm a hopeful, but unsure, Universalist. My somewhat recent acceptance of conditional immortality has actually increased my skepticism. I can believe God would allow those who reject him to simply cease to exist, an eternal torment I can not. But I'm still hopeful!

I know I'm late to the party - but Leaven appears ...

2009-12-23T09:15:32.402-06:00

I know I'm late to the party - but Leaven appears to be unavailable. Can you shoot me a copy? Thanks! Love your writing.

larry dot marturano (at) gmail dot com

hi Richard-- am wondering if you've come across a...

2009-12-23T08:39:12.961-06:00

hi Richard--

am wondering if you've come across anything on the posthuman in connection with your musings on purity/defilement and monsters? this is certainly an area where my research and this topic overlap, particularly with the notion of transgessive hybridity (for example, the cyborg="Man"/"Machine" hybrid, and can be either a monstrous, fearful narrative figure or a liberative one, depending on p.o.v.). Just curious!

Divorce is the effect of a marriage that is faced ...

2009-12-23T07:09:20.909-06:00

Divorce is the effect of a marriage that is faced with difficulties that seem insurmountable, an inability to get along, one or both partner's growing apart, substance abuse, a culture that condones divorce, legal ease of getting a divorce, the inexpensiveness of getting a divorce and other factors. Settling a divorce can be very difficult when couples cannot reconcile differences. When irreconcilable differences arise in the course of a marriage, it is important to consult a divorce lawyer. A skilled divorce attorney can help you negotiate child custody and visitation arrangements, fight for a fair distribution of property and assist you with developing a plan of action while advising you and fighting for what’s important to you.
Visit Online Divorce for more information.

I know. Too funny. I wrote that, then deleted the ...

2009-12-22T13:35:51.855-06:00

I know. Too funny. I wrote that, then deleted the pic of the boys for this one, and never changed the text. However, I'm very grateful my kid doesn't look like Bono...

Your boys bear an eerie resemblance to Bono and La...

2009-12-22T13:29:34.438-06:00

Your boys bear an eerie resemblance to Bono and Larry Mullen, Jr.

1. If we're all going to be saved, why did Jesus s...

2009-12-22T11:01:04.396-06:00

1. If we're all going to be saved, why did Jesus say that no one gets to the Father except through him?

I think it helps to read the comment in context (John 14).

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=NIV

2. Why would God send us his Son if he intended to save us all ...

John 14 suggests a reason. If Jesus lives primarily to help us understand God (and not to die as a substitutionary sacrifice), then the problem goes away.

Richard talks about substitutionary atonement a little in a previous universalism post:

http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2006/10/why-i-am-universalist-part-3-gift-of.html

Dr. Beck--I do love this conversation on Universal...

2009-12-22T10:46:26.522-06:00

Dr. Beck--I do love this conversation on Universalism. Brings back memories of sitting on a tram in Germany with a moleskin out and having this explained to me for the first time.

First, I want to say that when it all boils down, I am hoping that Universalism is the Truth.

But having said that here are my doubts, and perhaps you or someone else have some light to shed on these things:

1. If we're all going to be saved, why did Jesus say that no one gets to the Father except through him?
2. Why would God send us his Son if he intended to save us all, regardless of how we react to his Son? I feel like if Jesus is supreme, his supremacy is somehow compromised if I also say that in the end it doesn't matter if you chose him while you were on earth or not, because you can just suffer in Hell for a little bit, and then move in to Heaven after that....

We never believed it best to lead our children to ...

2009-12-22T08:14:40.026-06:00

We never believed it best to lead our children to have faith in a fictional character for the sake of material gain. We embraced Santa as part of the seasonal legends and myths, fun but not true. We have our own household characters as well -- the Lawnmower Fairy, the Ghost of Colleyville (my dad's creation), The Tooth Mommy. And our kids have grown up just fine, with excellent discernment skills. When our oldest was in kindergarten, though, at a local church, we were blasted by the teacher for not deceiving our child into 'believing in' Santa, because those children who DID believe were ready to fight him over it (but he was the one in trouble!).

We never had Santa in our house. Our now adult dau...

2009-12-21T19:21:29.761-06:00

We never had Santa in our house. Our now adult daughter 'met' him when she started school. She told us she realised that if she believed, she would get more presents, so she did! This was age 4 and a half, and as she tells it, a very pragmatic decision!

"The task of prophetic ministry is to nurture, nou...

2009-12-21T14:44:35.042-06:00

"The task of prophetic ministry is to nurture, nourish, and evoke a consciousness and perception alternative to the consciousness and perception of the dominant culture around us." - Walter Brueggemann

If Brueggemann is right, then you are, too, as a corollary to him. In this case, anyway.

qb

Well, the discussion over at Jesus Creed is off to...

2009-12-21T14:29:39.160-06:00

Well, the discussion over at Jesus Creed is off to a speedy start.

Richard, I began my look-see into UR based on your original series posted here, and from there I read Talbot's [and others'] essays in Universal Salvation?: The Current Debate. I have to say it's your point #1 above that is, for me, the most convincing.

But Gary Y.'s statement:
If Universal Reconciliation is not true, I certainly don't see myself qualifying for salvation at any level.

boils it right down for me. If my hope is based on something, anything, I have to get "right", I'm toast.

"Most defenders of a classical view of hell eventu...

2009-12-21T09:54:18.368-06:00

"Most defenders of a classical view of hell eventually make appeals to God's justice".

Many proponents of the above school of thought also rationalize the cliche (paraphrased) - a finite crime against an infinitely holy God warrants an infinite degree of punishment.

But after being a Christian for over 20 years, I still have yet to meet a man (just 1) who has
actually taken a step of faith to cut off his right hand or pluck out his right eye, if not do both.

I know I'm the only one who looks at Stacy Keiber's ass and legs with too much enjoyment, but I haven't worked up the nerve to mutilate my right hand or right eye (or worse yet, "that", or even more to the point, my heart - which is supposedly the real source for much wickedness).

If Universal Reconciliation is not true, I certainly don't see myself qualifying for salvation at any level.

Gary Y.

Since your blog is named "Experiential Theology" a...

2009-12-20T21:58:10.946-06:00

Since your blog is named "Experiential Theology" and you are a psychologist, wouldn't you adhere to an existentialist approach to theologizing? (which is really social scientific and psychologial understanding of "meaning making" events within history)...

Isn't this what happened in the early Christian "movement", as it pertained to the Christ event? This way, history nor myth has to the ultimate description...either way could be meaningful because it affirms the need of experiential meaning making...

So, whether Paul was a real figure, or the Christian tradition was the Chruch's myth, or Jesus was the incarnation of scientific understanding, or etc...it doesn't matter, in regards to the human person.

I just find it presently a little distasteful to promote religion, because the reality is, that if the psychological need is there; there is much more of a real need of counselling, or political deliverance, than some "pie in the sky" hope for the future...